Former armed forces minister Al Carns has described the level of waste and inefficiency at the Ministry of Defence (MoD) as 'unbelievable', stating that every time he 'turned a stone over' he encountered another shock. In an exclusive interview, Carns expressed anger at the unwillingness to confront the sunk costs of legacy programmes and suggested that mismanaged projects, such as tank investments, should be scrapped in favour of new technology.
Carns criticises defence investment plan
Carns, who resigned as a defence minister last week following the resignation of Defence Secretary John Healey, said he fundamentally disagreed with the direction of the defence investment plan (Dip). He noted that he had only been allowed to see the plans a fortnight ago and immediately rejected them. 'I looked at it and I was like, no, no, no, no. I ran out of road of where people will either listen to me or enact a change that I need,' he said.
Scathing assessment of Labour's situation
The former special forces soldier said Labour had 'one chance' to change and seek new leadership but was scathing about the party's current position. 'I don't think we could have got this more wrong - but we're in it now. My goodness, make the change once if you're going to, get on with it and get the country back on track,' he added.
While widely discussed as a potential leadership candidate, Carns said he was more interested in sparking a policy debate than becoming prime minister. 'If we get that policy debate wrong, we are not going to win in two-and-a-half years' time. And we're going to hand the country to a potentially far-right party that will split the nation apart,' he warned.
Inefficiency and bureaucracy at MoD
Carns described the inefficiency within the MoD as 'unbelievable', highlighting layers of bureaucracy that cost more than the products themselves. 'You turn a stone over and get another shock - how has that been allowed to go on? And you turn another stone over, and it is just layers of bureaucracy which now cost us more than the product you're getting itself,' he said.
He criticised the current investment plan as 'a typical example of the machine', noting that the MoD continues to spend large sums on legacy programmes that are becoming obsolete due to the difficulty of confronting sunk costs. 'Take tanks for example - 100 to 200 tanks isn't the most useful way of spending our money. They were ordered ages ago, and if you cancel them now, that's sunk cost ... that's cost us £700m. Well, I think these are the difficult discussions we have to make - the cost of running them is in the hundreds of millions, and so I would rather take that chunk of money and put it into those innovative systems that we need to buy,' he said.
Call for root-and-branch changes
Government sources have indicated that new Defence Secretary Dan Jarvis will be given an opportunity to 'reprioritise' aspects of the Dip. However, Carns insisted that root-and-branch changes are needed. 'We have the fifth biggest defence budget in the world. Do you think we get a good bang for buck? We need to completely and utterly overhaul our procurement. We need to make sure a large proportion of the resource and money is spent this side of 2030, to make sure that if we get caught in a geographical confrontation, we're ready,' he said.
Concerns about national resilience and leadership
Carns said any new leader or party in government would face the same challenges. When asked if there was appetite to change from the current leadership, he replied: 'No.' He acknowledged the difficulty of convincing the public about defence spending, given competing priorities such as the NHS, schools, and jobs. 'I go back to my constituency and say, what's the biggest problem you've got today? It's cost of living. They can't get an appointment with the NHS. They don't mention security at all,' he noted.
He argued that any new leader must reframe the conversation around national resilience, alongside policies on mental health, youth unemployment, and prison reoffending. 'The end state must be a stronger and more effective nation. This is about leadership and prioritisation. At the moment what I see is a lot of money going into unpackaged initiatives, thousands of announcements,' he said.
Geopolitical implications
Carns expressed deep concern about how the instability at the top of government and the potential leadership vacuum is viewed by the UK's enemies. 'Moscow is probably rubbing its belly. I think it looks at the social division that we're having in the UK and the amplification through social media as success for its propaganda campaign,' he said.
He reiterated that his intention is to spark a policy debate, not to enhance his own leadership credentials. When asked if he wanted to be prime minister, Carns said: 'I think anyone who wants to have that job doesn't understand that job. This isn't about ego, this is obviously about service.' However, he did not regret swapping his military career for frontline politics, stating that he has delivered more change in his current role than he would have in the military.
